Reflection and Realignment: The Challenges of Bi-vocational Ministry

Last week was the one-year anniversary serving as “Pastor” of Haughton Methodist Church. I put the title pastor in quotes because most days I don’t really feel like their pastor. I feel more like their Sunday preacher. Please understand, that’s not a reflection on the congregation. It is a reflection on me.

The anniversary gave me pause to reflect on a year of bi-vocational pastoral work. The time of reflection helped me identify some challenges I’ve faced. I share them here as a means of personal processing, acknowledging that my reflection may actually be helpful to other bi-vocational ministers, or to those considering bi-vocational ministry.

Don’t worry! It’s not going to be a long, drawn out blog. I don’t have that much time (I’m a bi-vocational pastor, after all!), and you won’t take the time to read a long post.

Defining Terms

First, I should define the term “bi-vocational pastor.” It’s really self-defining, but just in case, a bi-vocational pastor is one who works a full-time job in addition to serving as the pastor of a local congregation.

I intentionally use the term bi-vocational “pastor” because it is a specific calling within the Church. Here’s the reality–every believer is called to ministry. That means every believer is a “bi-vocational minister,” but not every believer is called to be a “bi-vocational pastor.” Make sense?

Why a “bi-vocational pastor”? One reason is the financial aspect. There are many (and by “many,” I mean a LOT!) of small churches across the country-side that lack the resources to pay a full-time pastor. This is the primary reason for bi-vocational pastors.

However, there are some pastors who feel God’s call to both the marketplace and the Church, so bi-vocational ministry affords them the opportunity to fulfill both callings. There are other reasons, too, but I said this wasn’t going to be a long blog, so…

Why am I a bi-vocational pastor? I am a bi-vocational pastor because when I stepped out of a full-time ministry role, I did not step out of God’s calling to preach the Gospel. When I left vocational ministry in 2019, I wasn’t completely sure what the Lord was calling me to, but I was entirely sure it wasn’t to full-time ministry.

Seasons of Transition

Early in the transition, I thought perhaps this new calling was for simple “pulpit supply.” I’d scratch that itch to preach by filling in for other pastors. Yeah? No! That wasn’t it.

Not long after I stepped away from a full-time role, a congregation called asking me to “fill in” for a period of time. That fill-in role turned into a two-and-half year interim situation. I’m certain the Lord called us there for that season, but I also felt the Spirit’s nudge that the season was over. (Absolutely WONDERFUL congregation, by the way!)

After another couple of interim stints in congregations, I thought the Lord’s call might be lived out in that way. After all, interim pastor is a legitimate need of the Church, and there are pastors specifically trained for such ministry (I’m not one of them, though), but because I wasn’t trained in that ministry, I didn’t have the expertise (nor the time) to lead the congregations in the work necessary to prepare for their next pastor.

Haughton Methodist Church has been different, though. I felt (feel?) called to settle in and be their pastor–their bi-vocational pastor. That calling brought a different mindset to ministry for me, and I suppose it is that mindset that has caused this week of reflection. It might also have to do with the fact that I got another year older this week, so there’s that! Anyway, let me get to the challenges I’ve faced.

1. Time Management and Overload

Margin matters, and as a bi-vocational pastor, I’m finding little margin in my life. Family gets crowded out and rest is sporadic, at best. The most concerning part is that personal spiritual renewal is almost non-existent (dare I confess that?).

That leads to mental and emotional fatigue. My grandfather, who was a businessman, worked all day, went home and vegged out in front of the television. I now know why he did that. He was tired! I often find myself doing the same thing. Many days when I get home I just want to do something totally mindless and that wastes a lot of time.

2. Limited Ministry Opportunities

I know the congregation needs new ministries. I know that I need to be discipling leaders and I know I need to be present in community outreach. There’s that time thing, though. It is difficult to discern and communicate a vision for the congregation while keeping the plates of family, work and ministry spinning. Not an excuse, just a reality.

The only way I know to overcome this reality is to rely on the laity of the congregation. I’ve got some of the best at Haughton, that’s for sure, but laity still need leadership.

3. Identity and Calling Tension

I confess that I wrestle with a “less-than” feeling when compared to my full-time clergy colleagues. I honestly don’t know why because I’m certain the Lord called me away from that. Perhaps it’s that I fear others perceive me as “less-than,” and that is my real problem. I’ve always struggled with what others think of me. Yes, there is more spiritual work I need to do if I’m still worried about what other people think of me.

I’ve tried to figure out who I am in this new season. Am I a pastor who owns a business, or am I a business owner who also pastors? It’s a perplexing question. How I answer the question determines how I set my priorities. I seem to answer it differently on different days, and I can’t think that’s a good thing.

Blessings Abound

These are just three of the challenges I’ve reflected on over the past week or so. There are probably a dozen others, but this post is already too long. Lest anyone think the past year has been all challenges, you would be incorrect. There have been far more blessings, and counting those blessings is one way I’ve managed the challenges. I’ll save those blessings to share for another blog post.

In the meantime, please pray for the congregation at Haughton Methodist Church. Oh, and pray for me, too. We both could use the prayers…and you could probably use the practice.

Until next time, keep looking up…

Am I Doing it All Wrong?

I haven’t written for a couple of weeks. I’ve either been busy or lazy (or a bit of both), so the words getting on the page have been slow to come. The respite from writing has given me time to think, though, and that can be a dangerous thing.

What have I been thinking about? I’ve been thinking about my role as a “pastor.” Actually, not my particular role as pastor, but the “pastor” model of the church of church leadership.

I was a “pastor” vocationally for 28 years. I’ve been a “pastor” bi-vocationally off and on since 2019. That gives me a total of 34 years experience, so maybe I have some insight into the role. Then again, maybe not.

Let me preface this blog with the statement that I think most pastors do a fantastic job and fill their role with integrity, character, diligence and faithfulness. The question I’m about to posit isn’t a reflection on anyone’s service in ministry, nor is it a reflection on God’s calling on anyone’s life. After all, ministry has been my calling since the age of 27 (perhaps longer, but I was deaf to the call), so the question has shaken me to my core.

Pastor vs. Pastor-Model

What is it that has shaken me to my core? Drum roll, please! Is the “pastor” model of leadership as we know it even a biblical concept?

What has prompted the question in this season of my life? Well, I “pastor” a small local church. They call me pastor and I call myself their pastor, but what I really am is their Sunday preacher. I don’t mind being their Sunday preacher. They need a Sunday preacher and I like to preach, so it seems to be a good fit. The folks are wonderful, faithful people who love Jesus, and I’m blessed to be their Sunday preacher, but, they need a pastor, too (or someone who fills the role that is traditionally called the “pastor”)

Perhaps they don’t need a “pastor” as traditionally defined. What they need is leadership. And, here might be a good place to clarify that I’m not really talking about the “pastor,” but more the “pastor model” that the Church has developed through the years. Yes, the “pastor” is a biblical calling:

11 Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the PASTORS (emphasis mine) and teachers. 12 Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4:11-12 NLT)

As certain as I am that “pastor” is biblical, I’m not equally certain that the “pastor model” of church leadership is biblical. The Apostle Paul, in writing to the Ephesians, certainly seems to indicate that there is some sort of plurality of leadership in the body of Christ (the local church), not one person who is the “pastor,” or the “senior pastor,” or the “founding pastor” who makes all the decisions in the church, or does most of the leadership work in the congregation.

Actually, Paul makes the case that the local church is to be led by “overseers” and “deacons” who would shepherd (pastor?) the church:

Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task…, and

In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain

(1 Timothy 3: 1, 8 NIV)

Likewise, in Titus 1, Paul instructed Titus to appoint “elders” who would serve as “overseers” of the local congregation:

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. (Titus 1:5-7 NIV)

I think the Bible is relatively clear that there is to be a plurality of leadership in the local congregation, with each one fulfilling the gifts given to the Church by Christ Himself. It is Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church/church. The plurality of leaders sit under His headship/Lordship. He is the One to whom we look for guidance. He is the One whom we follow.

Priesthood of All Believers

I also don’t see any biblical evidence for the distinction between clergy and laity in that plurality of leadership. Actually, I don’t see any distinction between clergy and laity at all. Sure, there were priests in the Old Testament, but I distinctly recall the passage in Matthew’s Gospel when Jesus breathed his last breath on the cross and “the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27: 51 NIV). Since the death of Jesus, anyone (I repeat-anyone!) could enter the holiest of places. The separation no longer exists.

Likewise, the Apostle Peter affirms that fact:

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2: 4-5 NIV)

This would be an excellent place to talk about men and women in leadership, and qualifications for elders, overseers and deacons, but I’m not perplexed by those questions, so I won’t chase those rabbits. I’m perplexed by the whole “pastor model” of church leadership, and I just wonder (as one who tries to live biblically) if I’ve been doing it wrong all these years?

I may not have been doing it wrong, but I certainly don’t believe I’ve been doing it biblically. I’ve been doing it the way I’ve been trained to do it, so it’s not necessarily the “wrong” way, it’s just not the biblical way. There’s nothing sinful about the way the pastor model has been/is being done, it’s just got me wondering if the pastor model has run its course and it’s time to get back to doing it the biblical way.

Perhaps all I’m doing is trying to justify my own inability to lead the congregation in a healthy, effective way these days. That, or the Lord is prompting me to dig more deeply into His calling upon my life and how He wants me to live that out. I pray it’s the latter. I fear it’s the former.

I suppose time will tell, but today is Sunday, and the folks need a Sunday preacher. So, until the Lord (or the congregation) tells me different, I’ll go be a Sunday preacher. That’s all I know to do right now. If you’ve got any clarity for me, please leave a comment below. I’d love to hear it.

Until next time, keep looking up…

To Eat and Live Indoors…

I didn’t get paid. And, really…I’m okay with that fact. There have been a couple of instances recently when I was invited to minister in settings and I was offered no remuneration. Can you believe that? Yeah! Me either! Geesh! What are people thinking?

No Complaints

Please, if any of you are reading this and I’ve been in ministry with you recently, don’t wrack your brain wondering if you “paid” me for the ministry. It’s 100% okay. I’m not complaining. I’m not in ministry for the money…though I do like to eat and live indoors.

Why am I 100% okay with not getting paid for ministry? Because I’ve learned the freedom that comes from not being dependent on the “church” for a living. Oh! There is freedom in that independence.

It’s been five years since I stepped away from vocational ministry. We stepped away from ministry totally trusting the Lord to provide for our needs (and He has). Yes, I had a job lined up, but even that job meant we had to adjust our lifestyle if we were going to make it, and I figured I would pick up some extra dough on the side by “filling the pulpit” to cover some gaps in the budget.

For twenty-eight years the “church” provided a good living (a very good living the last few years, I might add). I’ll be honest. It was hard to walk away from that security. Great salary. Great benefits. Great retirement plan (both in this world and the next!). What’s not to like? And, hey? Didn’t Jesus say that a “worker is worthy of his wage” (Matthew 10:10)?

I’m not indicting the model of vocational ministry that developed through the centuries. It serves its purpose to the Church (the institution) and to the church (the local congregation). Nor, am I indicting those who continue to serve full-time in vocational ministry. That’s your calling. You have to walk in that calling to be obedient. Good for you!

Paul’s Ministry

I am, however, going to espouse the freedom and the virtue of bi-vocational ministry. When someone hears the word bi-vocational, it is generally taken to mean a person who serves a congregation but also maintains secular employment–generally because the congregation can’t afford a full-time pastor.

What I mean when I say bi-vocational is a person who maintains secular employment as a means to support his/her ministry. I believe that’s what the Apostle Paul meant when he wrote:

On the contrary, we speak as those approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please people but God, who tests our hearts. You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed—God is our witness. We were not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else, even though as apostles of Christ we could have asserted our authority. Instead, we were like young children among you. Just as a nursing mother cares for her children, so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well. Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you (1 Thessalonians 2:4-9 NIV).

The Apostle Paul was a tent-maker and he plied his trade wherever he went in order to support the ministry to which he was called. Yes, he could have asserted his right to be compensated by those to whom he ministered, but he chose otherwise. He was a traveling evangelist, but he wasn’t expecting a love offering wherever he went.

Advantages of Bi-Vocational Ministry

As I reflect on Paul’s life and my own experience over the past five years, I want to point out three advantages of bi-vocational ministry.

Don’t Compromise the Gospel

First, there is the freedom of not compromising the message of the Gospel. Paul says that he is “not trying to please people, but God, who tests our hearts.” I’m not saying that pastors in full-time ministry compromise the Gospel. Please don’t hear that. I’m saying in bi-vocational ministry, the temptation to compromise the Gospel is not present because one is not dependent on the congregation to eat and live indoors.

Let me offer an example, if I may. When I served as a District Superintendent, it was a common task to meet with congregational leadership to discuss pastoral leadership. More than once (a lot more than once) I heard church leadership say, “the pastor works for us.”

Too many congregations see the pastor as an employee. As an employee, he/she is supposed to do what the leadership says. As an employee, the pastor is dependent on the congregation for a livelihood. As an employee, the pastor can be fired. With that in mind, there is the temptation to “give the people what they want” so that I can maintain the security of my position.

I’m sorry, but no! The pastor is not an employee. Congregations need to hear that. Pastor, you are called to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Truth of God’s Word. That means we have to tell people what they don’t want to hear sometimes. We need the freedom to do so to be faithful to the call. Bi-vocational ministry provides the means to that end.

Role-Model

Second, bi-vocational ministry provides the opportunity for the minister to be a role-model for others on a daily basis. I love how Paul says that he did not “put on a mask to cover up…” It becomes really easy for a pastor to put on the pastor mask every day to go out into the secular world. It’s like putting on a clergy collar for the world to see (nothing wrong with a clergy collar), but It can too easily become a role we play instead a definition of who we are. Believe me, this one hits very close to home!

Being in the marketplace in secular employment every day challenges the believer (and especially the pastor) to model the faith in ever more faithful ways. You can’t hide behind the clergy collar when you’re around 8 co-workers who know your short-comings and see them five or six days a week. As Paul told the Thessalonians, “we were delighted with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.”

Evangelism in Truest Sense

Third, bi-vocational ministry puts the minister in the secular world where secular people live. If we want to reach the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, we have to be where the people are. That is evangelism in its truest sense.

As a full-time vocational pastor, I spent more time with church people than I did with secular people. Between worship services, staff meetings, board meetings and bible studies, it left little time for engaging with un-churched and de-churched people. There was no time to share the Gospel with the lost (unless one considers folks in the church lost) because most of one’s time is already spoken for (you’re an employee, remember?).

Additionally, because a bi-vocational minister is in the secular world on a daily basis, living where secular people live, it becomes easier to interpret secular thinking and to stay abreast of shifting cultural values and mores. One gets the opportunity to understand why people think like they do and believe what they believe. It helps the minister make the Gospel relevant when the minister understands the mindset of the society and secular people.

A Final Thought

There are probably more advantages to being bi-vocational as a minister of the Gospel. These are just three I’ve thought about this morning reflecting on Paul and my own experience.

I never really saw myself as a bi-vocational minister in this regard. I’ve considered being bi-vocational in the traditional sense. Lord knows there is ample opportunity. I’ve said in recent years that I don’t have time for that. It’s not fair to the congregation because I couldn’t devote enough time to “grow” a church. After all, there’s no such thing as part-time ministry, only part-time pay.

But, I am bi-vocational in that I can work to support the work of the ministry to which I’m called. Right now, I’m called to be in the oil change business and preach in local congregations when asked. That’s what I’ll do for now. You can pay me, or not. I don’t care. If you do, I’ll be grateful and accept your blessing. If you don’t, I’ll thank God for His provision and that I had the chance to share the Gospel so as not “to be a burden to anyone.” That, and I like to eat and live indoors…

Perhaps the Lord is prompting you, Pastor, to reflect on His calling in your life. Is it time for you to become bi-vocational, too?

Until next time, keep looking up…

Living the Dream…

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is ith your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 

Romans 10: 9 – 17 (NIV)

This passage from Romans was part of my devotional reading on Thanksgiving day this past week. As I read this passage, I did so with mixed (?) feelings simply because this passage was so central in helping me discern God’s call to ministry over 32 years ago. Why were the feelings so mixed? My feelings were mixed because there are many days that I wonder if I am continuing to live out His call. To use the Apostle Paul’s imagery, I should state it this way: I’m not feeling like my feet are very beautiful these days.

Perhaps the feelings were also being fueled by a recent book I read entitled Goodbye Jesus: An Evangelical Preacher’s Journey Beyond Faith by Tim Sledge. Let me save you the pain of reading the book by offering a synopsis. Young man is called and begins preaching at age 16. Young man goes to college and seminary and graduates with multiple degrees. Young man marries. Young man serves numerous congregations until arriving as pastor of what becomes a “mega-church.” Young man starts vital ministries that impact congregations throughout the nation while leading the mega-church congregation. Pastor gets booted from mega-church congregation for no apparent reason. Pastor eventually gets divorced. Pastor gets re-married and divorced again. Pastor leaves ministry. Pastor loses faith in Jesus Christ and His Church.

While that is definitely the abridged version of the story, reading it did prompt me to reconsider what I believe about Jesus Christ and His Church, and why I believe it. As of today, I did not come down on the same side as the former Rev. Dr. Sledge.

Today, I am more committed to Christ and HIs Church than perhaps that day in October 1990 when I walked down the aisle at (what is now) Chatham Community Church and announced that I felt called to ministry.

May I say that I’ve been living the dream ever since!

Honestly, as a young man I never dreamed of being in ministry. It’s just nothing I ever considered. If you asked me as a teenager what my dream was, I would have told you to go into communications (I wanted to be Bob Barker, remember?).

Later, as a young man I would have told you I saw myself owning and running a business. Sure, I was working in law enforcement at the time, but I knew that would never be a career for me. I would be an entrepreneur, or hey, I might even go into politics (yup, tried that, too!), or why not do both? That was the dream in my early adult life. Let’s just say that God has a great sense of humor!

God’s sense of humor had me communicating on a weekly basis, engaging my entrepreneurial bent in growing congregations and managing the politics of leading a church. Yeah, funny right? God called me to ministry and gave me opportunity to do all the things I dreamed about as a kid and as a young man. It is called “living the dream,” just not in the way I thought.

There were days I thought the dream might become a nightmare. It’s on those days that I can understand how the former Rev. Dr. Sledge might reach the conclusion he did. Those sentiments came to a head for me in February 2019 as I watched events unfold at the special session of General Conference of the United Methodist Church. I’ve never seen the Church so ugly…or so ugly toward one another. Yes, I know the Church has a long history of ugly episodes, but I didn’t live through them. Experiencing the ugliness in real time takes a toll…or, at least it did on me.

I won’t say I lost my faith as a result of General Conference 2019, but I did lose a lot of faith in the institution and its leadership. If I didn’t lose my faith, I at least surely questioned it. I questioned His call to ministry. I questioned my commitment to Christ and His Church…and particularly the United Methodist Church. Could the Church be broken beyond repair? Could I make a difference anymore? Did I want to make a difference anymore? Was it worth the fight?

In 2019, my answer to the last three questions was “no.” I wouldn’t call it a crisis of faith, but I would call it a challenge to my faith, and I wasn’t sure I had the energy to withstand the challenge. The dream had become a nightmare and the nightmare led me to make the decision to leave ministry and the United Methodist Church. By far, the hardest decision I’ve ever made, but with it came a sense of relief…like a burden was lifted…like the way a person is supposed to feel when he/she comes to faith in Jesus Christ. It seemed to be working in reverse, though.

I can certainly understand how the former Rev. Dr. Sledge came to his conclusion. He sought healing and restoration through the church only to be rebuffed at every turn. Yes, there were moral lapses and ethical failures, but (for heaven’s sake!) the church is supposed to be a place of healing and restoration, isn’t it? We’re not supposed to shoot our own! He wasn’t booted from his pastoral position as a result of those moral lapses or ethical failures. They came after the fact. His living of the dream certainly turned into a nightmare. As the conclusion of the book reveals, the nightmare impacted his view of faith and the church. I sympathize with him, but I am eternally grateful I didn’t reach the same conclusion.

No, my time away from ministry brought me a new perspective. It gave me time to breathe, to think, to pray, to reflect and to reassess the call to ministry. When I made the decision in May 2019 to walk away, I thought surely I was done with ministry. Yes, I knew I would probably fill a pulpit for a vacationing pastor from time to time, but otherwise, enough was enough. It was time for a new dream, new plans and a new life.

Want to make God laugh? Tell Him your plans.

Initially, I didn’t receive many calls to fill in for clergy. I suppose I was damaged goods, or folks didn’t think I would be interested in pulpit supply (after all, I DID walk away). It’s probably a good thing. It gave me more time to miss the work of ministry, more time to reflect, more time to pray. Then, after seven months, the world changed–Covid-19!

The pandemic changed the way the church functioned. It was an absolute necessity. I watched with curiosity as pastors and lay leaders “pivoted” the way they did church. I felt a stirring in my bones that the challenges of adapting to the new reality would have been right up my alley. Perhaps the Lord knew the stress would kill me, so he delivered me from it, but that would certainly be a very narcissistic perspective (you mean it’s not all about me?). Covid actually made me miss the work of ministry. Covid caused me to reassess my call to ministry.

This blog is already too long, so I won’t go into all the ways the pandemic got my entrepreneurial juices flowing. Suffice it to say the pandemic (and watching pastors and churches adapt to it) reignited a vision within me for doing and being the church. It also wasn’t long before my phone started to ring to fill pulpits. I do find the timing interesting…just as my juices started flowing my phone started ringing. Coincidence? Probably not.

Let me make a long story short–today, I’m living the dream in a whole new way. Vanessa and I purchased a business in 2021, so I get to scratch my entrepreneurial itch every day, and now serving in my third congregation as an interim pastor, I have the opportunity to serve the Kingdom for His glory using the gifts and graces He supplies.

In this season of ministry, I’m content in helping congregations in transition. There are a lot of them that need the help (don’t even get me started on why!), so there is plenty of work to be done. I’ve also developed an even deeper appreciation for the work of bivocational clergy during this season of ministry.

The “dream” for now is knowing that the call is real because Christ is real and that I get to live it out every day. I am blessed in knowing that my disillusionment with the institution of the Church didn’t cause me to lose my faith in Jesus Christ, but that it opened doors to new ways of doing ministry…to new ways of living the dream…which I get to do every day. Praise God!

Okay, so my feet may not be that beautiful, but I have feet, and I’ll use them to share the Gospel. The Lord will transform that which was broken and make it beautiful. It’s what He does. Of that, I’m certain.

Oh, and one more thing of which I’m certain? If the world will know Christ, the world will know Christ because someone preached the Word. That’s where the Apostle Paul left it. Let me leave it right there, too!

Until next time, keep looking up…